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Tuesday, July 25, 2006

משנכנס אב ממעטים בשמחה

During the 3 weeks and especially during the 9 days we observe many ניהוגי אבילות such as not eating meat, not listening to music, not bathing, etc. The point of these is to make us sad and help us focus on the aveilus of the Churban.

The ניהוגי אבילות are not an end to themselves but rather a means to an end. They are supposed to bring us to a mood of aveilus. Therefore, for people to rely on kulos or work around these halachos completely defeats the purpose. Here are 2 examples:

1. Eating gourmet milchig meals with ice cream (because we are milchig) for dessert. This fulfills the ניהוג אבילות of not eating meat but defeats the purpose, you will not feel sad or missing anything after a gourmet meal. Someone who does this has completely missed the point of the 9 days.
2. Al Capella music. I am not going to get involved in the Halachic issue of whether it is permitted or not. Even if it is strictly speaking permitted again, it is against the spirit of the period and defeats the purpose. Presumably, a person listens to this music because he enjoys it.

It is hard for those of us who grew up in the West to relate, but during the 9 days a person is supposed to deprive himself and suffer a bit. This period is supposed to bring us to a state of mourning for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash and the Galus Hashechina which is the root cause of all our problems.


At 5:39 PM, Anonymous Doresh said...

Your first point is very well taken. Many times we defeat the purpose of a gezairah by finding some loophole.

As to your second point. Shulchan oruch does not talk about an issur for music. Neither does the mishnah berurah. In fact after going through the sugyah in gitin unless you hold like the Rambam its hard to be oveer the issur. According to rashi you would need to eat meat and wine while listening to music to be oveer the gezairoh. Its not poshut at all that there is any issur bichlal of music during the 9 days period.

At 5:46 PM, Blogger bluke said...

The issur to listen to music is assumed by all the modern day poskim. I will try to post some mekoros later.

At 5:55 PM, Blogger bluke said...

The reason to assur music is presumably that even during the year there is room to assur music because of zecher l'churban and therefore during the 3 weeks when the mourning for the Beis Hamikdash is more intense we shouldn't listen to music.

At 7:05 PM, Anonymous Doresh said...

I grant you that there is reason to ossur music during the 3 weeks but its not poshot. You cant criticise those who do. Secondly the issue in gitin is dependent on which rishon you go like. But someone could be somach on rashi and say that unless they are drinking wine and eating meat at the same time its permissable.

I state this point because I think its important to be magdir between an action that is ossur lkol hadeos and one where there is a lot of lattitude. In such a case you cant criticise someone for following the more meikal shotsh. Thats all.

At 7:12 PM, Blogger bluke said...

My point was that if music uplifts your spirit you shouldn't be looking for kulos to play it during this period.

At 8:58 PM, Anonymous Doresh said...

"My point was that if music uplifts your spirit you shouldn't be looking for kulos to play it during this period."

There is no befairush issur on music in shulchan oruch with respect to this issue.

Min hastam its not ossur. Only the issurim that chazal proscribed apply. Its a chidush to assur it.

You cant critise people for not going further.

At 11:05 PM, Blogger bluke said...

The Magen Avraham quoted by the Mishan Berura assurs ריקודין ומחולות. The Pri Megadim on that Magen Avraham discusses the halacha of a professional musician during this time. It is clear from the Pri Megadim that there is an issur of playing music (that is why he discusses a professional) and that it is included in ומחולות ריקודין. All the modern day poskim bring this din down.

At 11:12 PM, Blogger bluke said...

There is another point here as well. Until modern times music was not accessible to the people. The average Jew could not listen to music in his house, the only place that he heard music was at a wedding or a party. Therefore, the shulchan aruch didn't have to assur it because weddings and parties were already assur. It is only nowadays that we can listen to a CD in our house that the question really comes up and the modern day poskim have all assered.

At 5:46 AM, Anonymous doresh said...

I'll look into it further based on what you said.

At 6:33 AM, Blogger ADDeRabbi said...

AFAIK, the prob w/ meat and wine during the 9 days is as a zecher for the korbanot and the nesachim which are no longer offered. it's not about excessive joy. therefore, gourmet milechigs is fine.

At 6:46 AM, Blogger ADDeRabbi said...

upon further review, it seems to be a dispute whether it's because of simcha or zecher:

בית יוסף אורח חיים סימן תקנא

כתב הכל בו (שם כה:) יש נמנעים מאכילת בשר משנכנס אב לפי שאין שמחה אלא בבשר ואף על פי כן אין להמנע מהתבשיל שנתבשל בו הבשר דלצעורי נפשיה קא מכוין והא איצטער ועוד דאמרינן בנדרים (נא:) הנודר מן הבשר מותר בתבשיל וכתב בשם ה"ר אשר (סי' לו) שטעם הנמנעים מבשר ויין משבעה עשר בתמוז מפני שבו בטל התמיד וגם ניסוך היין בעונותינו (עיי' ב"ב ס:) ומדברי המרדכי (סו"ס תרלט) שאכתוב בסימן שאחר זה (רעט. ד"ה ומ"ש דבשר עוף) נראה שהנוהגים איסור מראש חדש או משבעה עשר בתמוז בבשר ויין אפילו בשר עוף או בשר מלוח ויין תוסס אסור ומיהו אם כשהתחיל לנהוג התנה שלא יאסר בבשר עוף וכיוצא פשיטא דלא נאסר בהם:

At 1:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

some would say that when chazal assured something and you find a way around it, that you are not defeating the gezeirah, but rather fulfilling it by the very fact you are circumventing it.

Chazal didnt want a period of lent.

At 3:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

see nitei gavriel for comprehensive list of sources

At 10:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the Old Country, few had gourmet anything in the best of times, so the issue of gourmet milchig during the 9 Days would not have arisen.


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