Tuesday, October 11, 2005

Some halachic points regarding building a succah II

I would like to clarify things relating to using strings and לבוד to create a wall.

2 points by way of introduction.

1. The acharonim say that a wall created just by לבוד one way (e.g. strings across the wall like I suggested) is called a מחיצה גרועה a weak (for lack of a better translation) wall
2. A succa does not require 4 walls (like for a reshus hayachid on Shabbos), rather it only requires 3, and really only 2 plus a tefach.

Given the above the Magen Avraham (סי' תר"ל ס"ק א) writes that if you are creating a wall(s) with לבוד you need to have 4 walls. In other words , the leniency of of 3 walls only applies to real walls, but if you have a מחיצה גרועה this leniency does not apply and you need to have 4 walls.

This means that if you want to be machshir your canvas succah using string and לבוד you must do this on all 4 walls.

One issue that comes up is what about the door? One wall is not complete because you need to leave room for the door. That would seem to be ok if the door is not large because the wall is majority there and only minority open.

There is another way to do this which creates better walls. If in addition to the strings across, you put string going up and down less then every 3 tefachim the length of the wall, you end up with a real mechitza. The reason being that the strings go both ways (you end up with squares less then 3 tefachim in length and width, שתי וערב) and there is no big gap of space.

In truth, I never did this, but after reviewing the sugya if I was being machshir a succah based on strings and לבוד this year I would do this for my peace of mind. It is not that much work (for an 8 foot wall you need to put up 12 strings) and by doing this you create real walls and therefore only need 3 walls and don't have to worry about the door, etc.


imainish said...

Very interesting. However, would you agree that between the mechitzah gerua and the canvas tied as tightly as possible one would be covered (no pun intended)?Unless one is not using any canvas at all, I would think running the 12 strings up and down would be overkill.

daaty said...

leshana habaah beyerushalayim habenuyah.

Anonymous said...

Can you please clarify that MA. I dont see where he says that regarding lavud and 3 walls.


bluke said...

It is a long MA, but if you look in the Mishna Berura in sif katan 7 there he writes (from the MA) explicitly that if you make a wall using sticks less then 3 tefachim apart you need to make 4 walls.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Bluke: I discussed your blog with my local Orthodox Posek, and he said there's a difference between using livud on a semi complete wall and needing to have livud on all 4 walls.

I understood that the livud needs to be used on all 4 walls if the livud is used to complete walls (on an X axis). However, if using livud to complete walls on the Y axis (height), and the walls are complete on the X axis, then you do not need Livud on all 4 walls. (or 3...)

Choref Tov. Remember going back to KBY for Choref Zman? With Bein Hazmanim over, its one long stretch till Chanuka. We went on a Chanuka tiyu to Masada, accompanied by Rav Blachman, who spoke about the sugya of suicide and kiddush Hashem/chilul Hashem.

bluke said...

If I understand you correctly, I was talking about the completing walls on the X axis. Basically, if the canvas moves a lot, you have no walls whatsoever and therefore you need lavud to create walls.

I still remember KBY, although I don't remember a Channuka tiyul (certainly not to Masada). Where you in R' Blachman's shiur?

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Hi -

Reading your blog, it seemed (to me) that you were saying that Lavud needs to be on all 4 walls...even if the purpose of the Lavud is to add height to the wall. I have 80 cm high walls, but needed to make them high enough (1 meter). So, I wanted to use Lavud on top of the walls, making them 1 meter high. However, your blog implied (to me) that I would need Lavud above all 4 walls for the Lavud to "work".

In '85 we had a Chanuka tiyul...and yes, I was in R' Blachman's shiur as well.

bluke said...

What you are talking about is not Lavud, once you have a wall of 10 tefachim you have a wall and it goes up to the sky (gud achis).

I was in KBY a little after you, did you stay shana bet?

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

I was told that 10 tefachim is equal to a meter...so my 80 cm walls weren't high enough (which is why I wanted Lavud...even though I have fabric walls as well)

Yes, I stayed Shana Bet as well. My roomate was Effy Hochstein.

bluke said...

I should have realized that 80 centimeters is less then 10 tefachim.

In any case this is still different then the case that I was talking about. I was talking about where the walls are only Lavud, in your case where you have a short wall I don't think the MA would apply.

I remember Effy Hochstein, I think we probably overlapped in KBY.

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Bluke: You are correct. However, I had understood from your blog that: Given the above the Magen Avraham (סי' תר"ל ס"ק א) writes that if you are creating a wall(s) with לבוד you need to have 4 walls. In other words , the leniency of of 3 walls only applies to real walls, but if you have a מחיצה גרועה this leniency does not apply and you need to have 4 walls. Therefore, since I was using Lavud to increase height, it appeared to me that you were saying that I needed Lavud on "all 4 walls." Since this didn't make any sense to me, I asked my local posek who told me what to do. He thought about it, and suggested that since one of my 80 cm high walls had 4 cm gaps at either end, that I "fill them" with additional wood.

We probably overlapped at KBY...but I don't remember anyone named bluke. ;-)

Shabbat Shalom!

bluke said...

The MA was referring to a mechitza where it is only way (e.g. strings across), with a mechitza like that you need 4 walls. Your mechitza was real for most of the way ands therefore I don't think was considered a mechitza grua.

I was one of the quiet guys who learned to until 1AM every night in KBY. I was definately not bluke.