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Sunday, July 31, 2005

Yeshiva Tuition II

Updated


Hirhurim quotes R' Feival Cohen about the tuition crisis as follows

R. Feivel Cohen (author of the Badei Ha-Shulhan) returned from a convention of Agudath Israel of America somewhat upset. It seems that there was a big discussion at the convention about what some were calling a "tuition crisis." R. Cohen pointed out that the Gemara in Beitzah 16a states the following:

All of one's livelihood is determined from Rosh Hashanah through Yom Kippur except for what one spends on Shabbos, on holidays, and one's children's Torah education because [for these three things] if one reduces [the expense] they reduce [one's income] and if one adds [to the expense] they add to one's income.

Clearly, said R. Cohen, there cannot be a tuition crisis. The more you pay for tuition, the more one receives as income to make up for that expense. At least according to the Gemara and "We know what we call people who do not believe what the Gemara says."


I would like to answer his question with another question. How come there are so many Jews in America (having a tuition crisis) don't Chazal tell us in countless places the wonders of Eretz Yisrael and the benefits of living there? Isn't living in Eretz Yisrael a mitzva that is shkula k'neged kol hamitzvos?

Here are some of the many מאמרי חז"ל relating to the subject

תלמוד בבלי מסכת כתובות דף קי עמוד ב .1
לעולם ידור אדם בארץ ישראל, אפילו בעיר שרובה גויים; ואל ידור בחוצה לארץ, ואפילו
בעיר שרובה ישראל: שכל היוצא לחוצה לארץ--כאילו עובד עבודה זרה

A person should leave in Eretz Yisrael even in a city full of non-Jews and not live outside of Eretz Yisrael even in a city that is mostly Jewish because whoever lives outside of Eretz Yisrael is like he is worshipping avoda zara

2. תלמוד בבלי מסכת כתובות דף קיא עמוד א
אמר רבי אלעזר: כל הדר בארץ ישראל שרוי בלא עון

Whoever lives in Erezt Yisrael lives with no sins

3. תלמוד בבלי מסכת ברכות דף ה עמוד א
תניא, רבי שמעון בן יוחאי אומר: שלש מתנות טובות נתן הקדוש ברוך הוא לישראל, וכולן לא נתנן אלא על - ידי יסורין. אלו הן: 1. תורה 2. וארץ ישראל 3. והעולם הבא

Hashem gave 3 gifts to the Jewish people that are acquired through difficulties, Torah, Eretz Yisrael, and Olam haba

4.תלמוד בבלי מסכת קידושין דף מט עמוד ב
עשרה קבים חכמה ירדו לעולם, תשעה נטלה ארץ ישראל, ואחד כל העולם כולו

Ten measure of chochma (knowledge) came down to the world, 9 went to Eretz Yisrael and one to the rest of the world

5.ספרי דברים פיסקא פ
וירשתם אותה וישבתם בה ושמרתם לעשות את כל החקים האלה אמרו ישיבת ארץ ישראל שקולה כנגד כל המצות שבתורה.

Living in Eretz Yisrael is equal/comparable to all other mitzvos

6.תלמוד בבלי מסכת פסחים דף קיג עמוד א
אמר רבי יוחנן: שלשה מנוחלי העולם הבא, אלו הן: הדר בארץ ישראל, והמגדל בניו לתלמוד תורה, והמבדיל על היין במוצאי שבתות. מאי היא - דמשייר מקידושא לאבדלתא

R' Yochana said 3 people inherit olam haba: the person who lives in Eretz Yisroel ...

7.תלמוד בבלי מסכת בבא בתרא דף קנח עמוד ב
אמר רבי זירא, שמע מינה: אוירא דארץ ישראל מחכים.

R' Zera said the air of Eretz Yisrael makes a person wiser

8.מסכתות קטנות מסכת אבות דרבי נתן נוסחא א פרק כו
(רבי עקיבא) אלא כך אמר דוד כל המניח ארץ ישראל ויוצא חוץ לארץ מעלה עליו הכתוב כאלו עובד עבודת אלילים

The generation that leaves Eretz Yisroel and goes to chutz laaretz is like they are worshipping avoda zara.
...

Why should people living in America take the statements of Chazal regarding tuition more seriously then the statements regarding living in Eretz Yisrael? After all there are numerous statements about Eretz Yisroel (I quoted 8 which is just the tip of the iceberg) while this statement about tuition appears only once in the Talmud Bavli.

I would suggest that the same Jews living in America who don't seem to believe in the statements of Chazal regarding living in Eretz Yisrael don't believe in the words of Chazal regarding tuition.

52 Comments:

At 12:04 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Kudos! We at the Muqata salute you!

Reminds me of a drasha I gave in Teaneck once...before moving here.

 
At 4:15 PM, Anonymous Ploni Almoni said...

Parnosa concerns can be a valid reason not to live in Eretz Yisroel, since there is no statement in Chazal that one will make the same parnosa in Eretz Yisroel as it Chutz L'aretz.

 
At 4:22 PM, Blogger bluke said...

I don't deny that. However, it is clear from Chazal that Eretz Yisrael is the place for a Jew to live. It is all a question of priorities just like for education. Just like someone suggested that a person should forgo all luxuries and eat tuna fish to be able to afford to send their children to yeshiva a similar thought process needs to be applied to living in EY. Every person needs to evaluate for themselves what is important and what level of income they need. What I am saying is that from my experience very few individuals actually seriously consider moving. In other words they don't take Chazal's words regarding the importance/worth of living in EY seriously.

BTW, given the outrageous tuition that people need to pay, I am not all sure that it is easeir to make a living in America then in israel.

 
At 4:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

bluke, i really think you are pushing it w/ this one. the gemara makes positive statements about e"y,but there are also valid spiritual reasons not to live there (besides parnasa), you are quoting an awful lot of talmud *bavli* after all. One can believe all this about E"y and have legitimate reasons to live elsewhere
chazal had bad things to say about being being mlamed kategoriya on bnei yisroel, even if you are tempted as we all are at times for our pet issues.

r cohen to the best of my knowledge lives part of the year in E"y btw.

 
At 4:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"legitimate reasons"

and I mean spiritual reasons.

 
At 4:38 PM, Blogger bluke said...

What spiritual reasons do you have? As someone who has lived in both American and EY, i find life to be much more spiritually oriented in EY then in America.

I do not see why I am pushing it. Chazal clearly placed a great emphasis on living in EY. The Talmud Bavli came about because of the Churban Habayis. Today, whatever you think about the state, any Jew can get on a plane and go live in EY. The fact that more people are not doing it is a terrible thing.

If someone evaluates their situation and comes to the conclusion that they are better off in America for whatever reason, fine. However, I believe that a large percentage of religious Jews never seriously entertain the thought. Given that according to the consesus of poskim, there is a mitzva of Yishuv haaretz and given the other benefits that Chazal state for living in EY, it is uinbelievable that more people don't seriously evaluate moving and ask shailas about it.

 
At 4:41 PM, Blogger Rebeljew said...

"All of one's livelihood is determined from Rosh Hashanah through Yom Kippur except for what one spends on Shabbos, on holidays, and one's children's Torah education because [for these three things] if one reduces [the expense] they reduce [one's income] and if one adds [to the expense] they add to one's income."

This statement says it all. And why do this sniveling large families always ask for "breaks" in tuition. Such a bunch of ketanei amana! If the tuition is 12K per child and they have 10 kids in school, they should pay 120K, period! G-d will provide it obviously. And why should the schools scrape by. Let them charge 30K PER CHILD! OR MORE!!!!!! LET THIS SILLY FAMILY PAY 300K PER YEAR AND THEY WOULD GET IT BACK, OF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, what the frum community needed. Common Sense.

 
At 4:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is all a question of priorities just like for education."

1. It is a risk of life to live in E"Y

2. If you are not a Zionist, then one is in the position of having either to fight to defend the state, that one didnt think should have been fought for in the first place
or not having ones kids in the army, and parasitically depending on others,something that is not acceptable to many people


3. there are huge cultural issues that can impact a person negatively spiritually, and be very difficult for kids

4. people who are unhappy w/ the different streams in EY, who are unwilling even if their kids are young to risk raising them in an alien culture as immigrants.

5. obligations, communal and otherwise, outside of EY

I appreciate that you can answer these objections, but I also appreciate that some of them are not issues for you. Whether one must move to E"Y is a halachic issue. Is it your place to make spiritual judgements beyond halacha for other people? Do you really think that all people who dont make the same choices you do have mixed up priorities -- maybe they just face different issues than you and moving to E"Y would mean different things for them than it did for you. People have a right to follow their rabbonim and their own conscience and decide if they are arranging their spiritual priorities correctly -- and quoting a series of maameri chazal at other people doesnt change that.

The question R Feivel asked wasnt really how people can worry about finding money for tuition; he was asking a theoretical question about how a crisis can exist.

 
At 4:46 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Ploni Almoni,

The gemara in Beitzah states

All of one's livelihood is determined from Rosh Hashanah through Yom Kippur except for what one spends on Shabbos, on holidays, and one's children's Torah education because [for these three things] if one reduces [the expense] they reduce [one's income] and if one adds [to the expense] they add to one's income.

Just like there can't be a tuition crisis because hashem will repay the money spent on tuition, it shouldn't matter whether you live in EY or America, your income is fixed on Rosh hashan by hashem.

 
At 4:53 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Anonymous,

I will answer your points 1 by 1.

1.It is no more dangerous to live in EY then in NYC, in fact statistically it is safer. Yes, there are dangerous places in EY, but there are dangerous places in NY as well.

2.Except for Neturei Karta and Satmar the Charedi population is not aganst the state today and has no theoretical problem with serving in the army (see for example the Steipler's letter answering the Satmar rebbe). The fact that they don't serve in the army is a different issue. BTW, even that is changing.

3. It all depends when you come and where you live. If you come with teenage kids you are asking for trouble.

4. If all the Americans would come it would help alleviate the problem

5. Is a legitimate point, a person needs to evaluate what their contribution is.

You wrote hether one must move to E"Y is a halachic issue.

I agree with you. What bothers me is that a very large percentage of people won't even consider it and don't ask the question. I have no problem with someone who asked a shaila and received an asnwer to stay in America. i do have a problem with people who don't seriously consider it and don't even ask the shaila.

 
At 4:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What spiritual reasons do you have? As someone who has lived in both American and EY, i find life to be much more spiritually oriented in EY then in America."

Yes, but you are MO, and a Zionist,and sort of TIDE, as most happy Olim are. You also have a very distinct personality; the general sense I get is that if someone would tell you that Israelis are psychologically less complex/sophisticated than Americans, and this gap is not traversed easily, you wouldnt really "Get" that, but it can have enormous impact on someone who does. Spiritual impact.

"I do not see why I am pushing it."

You're pushing it b/c you are relying on something of a distortion of what R cohen said, to be melamed kategoriya on whole sections of klal yisroel, many of whom have consulted with their own spiritual leaders about this issue and who take it seriously and have decided differently than you. Chazal have nasty things to say about those who are judgemental about others also; should I ask if you dont believe those chazals? Eliyahu was punished for sayign criticism that was *true*; in your case, the criticism isnt nec. valid at all.
"The Talmud Bavli came about because of the Churban Habayis. Today, whatever you think about the state, any Jew can get on a plane and go live in EY."

They were travelling back and forth then too and said that the torah of bavel made it greater.

"The fact that more people are not doing it is a terrible thing."

Because it works for you?

"If someone evaluates their situation and comes to the conclusion that they are better off in America for whatever reason, fine. However, I believe that a large percentage of religious Jews never seriously entertain the thought. Given that according to the consesus of poskim, there is a mitzva of Yishuv haaretz and given the other benefits that Chazal state for living in EY, it is uinbelievable that more people don't seriously evaluate moving and ask shailas about it."

Many people know the answer to the shaila already, you know.

And the #1 reason people dont move is that there is no obligation to put yourself in danger to live in E"Y, and many people dont want to. Many people are not Zionistic, and are not real clear that the options for religious life in E"Y are so hot.

Many people would like, in principle to retire in E"Y, but for ex, discover that they want to support their kids in learning, and dont want to give their jobs and move to E"Y rather than help their kids.
Etc. Etc.
There are many obvious reasons that moving is not always the best option.

 
At 5:00 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Anonymous,

You keep repeating that is is dangerous to live in EY. This is simply not true. Where I live I feel much safer then I ever felt living in a very Jewish neighborhood in NYC. Yes, there are dangerous places in EY, just like there are dangerous places in NYC. However, the average Charedi Jew in EY is safer then in NYC.

How can you say most people know the answer to the questions? It is a very individualist question depending upon the person, children etc. the answer may change given personal circumstances. What you are really saying is that people think they know the answer and don't bother asking.

 
At 5:05 PM, Blogger bluke said...

People here seem to have misunderstood my point. I will try to rephrase it.

It is patently clear from Chazal that EY is the place for a Jew to live. Therefore a person's perspective needs to be what is my heter to stay in chu"l? Why am I not fulfilling the will of hashem and living in his land? As the Rav of my shul commented, once you realize this fundamental point that hashem wants you to live in EY then everything else is an obstacle that you can overcome.

No one will deny that it is difficult. In fact, the Chazal state that EY is one of the 3 things obtained through Yissurin. However, with the right perspective a person can overcome these yissurin and become the better oved hashem.

 
At 5:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"1.It is no more dangerous to live in EY then in NYC, in fact statistically it is safer. Yes, there are dangerous places in EY, but there are dangerous places in NY as well."

Not the areas Jews are living in, though. There are no areas in E"Y safer than the typica areas in the US Jews live in. And all of you are under atomic threat.

2."Except for Neturei Karta and Satmar the Charedi population is not aganst the state today and has no theoretical problem with serving in the army (see for example the Steipler's letter answering the Satmar rebbe). The fact that they don't serve in the army is a different issue. BTW, even that is changing."
This is why I wrote that they wouldnt have fought for the state in the first place. IOW, my point was that they might feel that if they moved, theyd have to defend the state, but they are not happy the state was created in the first place and dont want to defend it, and they are also unhappy w/ other aspects of serving in the army.

3.It is *worse* w/ tee3nage kids, but it is an issue, that is only mitigated I'd say retirement age, or perhaps if you come yourself as a late teen/early 20s.

4.One needs to deal with reality when one makes life decisions.

5. You agree to this one.

"I agree with you. What bothers me is that a very large percentage of people won't even consider it and don't ask the question."

Most people you are talking about have learned in E"Y or visited at some length, and have considered it, some more seriously than others. Some of those who dont consider it seriously dont consider it because they have many obvious and serious reasons that it is not an option for them. You can't impose your personality and circumstances on others.

 
At 5:08 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Regarding the danger of living in EY (again most of EY is as safe or safer then a place like NYC), the following was printed in בקהילה a Charedi newspaper a few weeks ago.

The settlers in Gush Katif asked R' Yaakov Kamenetsky if they are allowed to live there, maybe they should move because of Pikuach Nefesh? He answered that it is a milchemes miztva (and therefore there is no halacha of pikuach nefesh like the Minchas Chinuch).

 
At 5:12 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Anonymous,

You are just wrong about where it is more dangerous to live. Most of the places where the Charedi population lives (Beni Brak, Yerushalayim, Bet Shemesh, Ashdod, etc.) is safer then NYC, there is no doubt about it.

Israel is currently not under atomic threat while the US still is. Did you advocate leaving the US during the Cold War when the Soviet Union had 10,000 nuclear missilies pointed at the US? What about during Dinkin's term as Mayor when there were over 2000 murders in NYC a year?

 
At 5:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bluke you are being very tendentious. Chazal say many things are important, talmud torah for one. Raising yoru kids to torah, for another. Not everyone thinks they will do these well in E"Y,and many of them have very good reason for concern.

"However, with the right perspective a person can overcome these yissurin and become the better oved hashem."
Living in E"Y is not the only way to be an oved hashem, and who told you it was the most important thing in the torah? Talmud torah is more important. One of the yissurim some people choose to endure is golus.

 
At 5:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You are just wrong about where it is more dangerous to live. Most of the places where the Charedi population lives (Beni Brak, Yerushalayim, Bet Shemesh, Ashdod, etc.) is safer then NYC, there is no doubt about it."

NYC is not where people live; people live in places that are safer than most of these, there are no suicide bombs (yet) and more importantly, you're assuming no army service.

Atomic threat from the USSR was not very real after the Cuba crisis. aTomic threat from Iran is real.

 
At 5:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i.e NYC as a whole is not where people live. The bronx is unsafe. Not 45th St and 13th avenue in boro park.


But I am not trying to talk you out of living in E"Y. I am just saying you are not correct to be mekatreg on whole communities this way. People could travel to E"Y in the past too, and they didn't; they had reasons. If you have something to say to encourage more people to consider moving, that is a good thing, but there are more appropriate ways to do it IMO than this post.

 
At 5:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What you are really saying is that people think they know the answer and don't bother asking."

No, I'm saying most people are familiar w/ life in Israel, and w/ their own circumstances, and many have done it, as students for example. It is the rare person who hasnt given it thought

 
At 5:27 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Anonymous,

The same goes for Israel,Bnei Brak, bet Shemesh, Ashdod etc are all very safe. There is more crime in Boro park then any of the above cities in Israel.

 
At 5:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is patently clear from Chazal that EY is the place for a Jew to live."

NO, it is only clear that all things being equal, E"Y is the place to live. It is clear that if one finds talmud torah is better (for whatever reason) in chutz laaretz, one should choose chutz laaretz.

"The settlers in Gush Katif asked R' Yaakov Kamenetsky if they are allowed to live there, maybe they should move because of Pikuach Nefesh? He answered that it is a milchemes miztva (and therefore there is no halacha of pikuach nefesh like the Minchas Chinuch). "

Whether you should move is not the same question as whether you should go there in the first place.

 
At 5:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All my relatives in Israel know several people who have been injured or killed by suicide bombers. (They live in "Safe" areas.) I know one person *by reputation* in the US who was.
Dont be disingenuous.

 
At 5:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I mean, it is not dangerous to get on a bus in Boro Park, not yet anyway. It is dangerous to get on a bus to go to the kotel. How can you deny this? On the contrary, it is admirable that people take the risk, but it is a risk. And one is not nec. obligated to take this risk. But anyway, by "Risk," I am including army service and/or the almost equivalent spiritual risk of haivng your neighbors kids risk their lives for your safety w/o participating.

 
At 5:34 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Bluke: Don't even bother. Anonymous' and Ploni's (limineihem) remind of those who wanted to be Mikadesh Hachodesh from Bavel. They wrap eveything into a silly "MO/UO/Chareidi" or security issue. Living here, you know there is FAR less classification of MO vs. UO vs. CL, and its not nearly as important a label as those living in ch'ul. When I get called for different polls in Israel, and they ask for the "demographic/religious" classification, I answer "Yehudi."

I would rather walk around with an M16 here, then get spat on, which happened to me all the time when I went to yeshiva in Washington Heights.

Face it, its a very rare breed of chutznik Jew than can have actual feelings for a land they've been detached from for 2000 years. Do you see the yearning for EY among Jews in chul the way the Chofetz Chaim or the GRA had?

Sorry - much too busy worrying about tuition....and the "security" problem in Israel. A great book to read is the ma'aseh nissim book of daily life in Gush Katif.

 
At 5:35 PM, Blogger bluke said...

it is dangerous to go to the Catskills, how many people from Boro Park have been killed in the past few weeks?

Keep living in your fantasy world that Boro Park is this super safe place, it is not.

There are no spiritual risks living in Boro Park for your kids?

 
At 5:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Living here, you know there is FAR less classification of MO vs. UO vs. CL, and its not nearly as important a label as those living in ch'ul."

I lived for a bit in E"Y, and that was not my experience at all. And it is far harder w/ kids than for adults.


"I would rather walk around with an M16 here, then get spat on, which happened to me all the time when I went to yeshiva in Washington Heights."

This doesnt sound like the mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel to me. It sounds likeby living in E"Y, you have forgotten that you are still in *golus* just not in golah.

 
At 5:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dont live in Boro Park:)

Listen, if living in Eretz Yisroel produces this kind of arrogance and judgementalism and tendency to be m'katreg on klal yisroel, I'm not sure I want it.

 
At 5:45 PM, Blogger bluke said...

Anonymous,

Did you read what R' Leff wrote R' Zev Leff on moving to Eretz Yisrael? I guess he doesn't know anything about the security situation either, right? Only you do? Did you see his other points?


How does carrying an M16 take away from his mitzva of yishuv haaretz?

 
At 5:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is patently clear from Chazal that EY is the place for a Jew to live"

The thing I cannot get over is that it hasnt penetrated that these chazals were mostly offered by people who were quite willing to live in bavel, at a time when there was torah in E"Y too. You are distorting the prioritizations.

If you bear that in mind, you can give all the mussar you want, but the tone would by necessity be different.

 
At 5:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was remarking on the stated reason to be unhappy living in Wash Hts. Sounded like an argument based on self-esteem (no one will spit on you), not an argument based on the mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel.

 
At 5:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bluke, everyone knows his points, that doesnt mean that moving to E"Y is a good option for them. And R Leff's analysis of the security situation is a bit wanting, Living in chutz laaretz, I am not willing to deny the zchus of people who are obviously taking more risk than most Americans are.

 
At 6:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is all a question of priorities just like for education. "

But that is the point; education is the higher priority. Your answer to people who think they will be taking a substantial risk that their kids will turn out disaffected and go off the derech is that if all Americans moved, it would be different. That's not realistic.

 
At 6:07 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Anonymous: I got mugged in Washington Heights, not in Israel.
I got spat on in WH, not in Israel.

I don't think that having an IDF issued M16 around is too scary a thought, for the privledge of living here. Why would I think that Am Yisrael is not in the Galut? Its obvious, becuase YOURE still there, and not here.

Having 7 kids of my own, (BEH), I'm constantly teaching my kids that there are no "labels" and that they are all meaningless. Their Zaidey wears a black hat, their Saba wears an Orange Kippa their Abba wears sandals to shul.
Big Deal. Go to shul 3 times a day, and the rest is marginal.

 
At 6:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous: I got mugged in Washington Heights, not in Israel.
I got spat on in WH, not in Israel."

If this is your reason for moving, then you moved for your own convenience, so why do you feel spiritually superior?

I don't think carrying an M16 is scary.

I think you talk like you believe the galus is over, ie that if you carry an M16, you are protected from goyim spitting on Jews. If we are quoting the CI On yishuv eretz yisroel, the CI thought this attitude was avoda zora.

It's not the labels, or how ones kids look at others; it's the educational (and other) options.

 
At 6:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But anyway, I hope you find it in your heart not to teach your kids to look down on all Jews who live in chutz laaretz. You seem to have overlooked that one. It's a mitzvas asey to judge your fellow Jew l'kaf z'chus; and it's not subject to machlokes haposkim either.

 
At 6:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The point is illogical anyway. You're not claiming chutznikim don't *believe* these chazals, just that they are not willing to suffer yissurim. You're saying they're mumrim l'teyovon (as it were); R Cohen is saying they are not ma'aminim.

There were many great leaders of klal yisroel who didnt pick up and move to E"Y.
This kind of judgemental attitude is one of the major reasons that many people dont want to move to Israel. Really. One of the reasons the sociological options are so lousy in E"Y, is that the culture is very simplistic and extreme and doesnt make room for a three dimensional picture of human beings, only for the 2 dimensional ideology.

 
At 6:27 AM, Anonymous Nobody said...

"If the tuition is 12K per child and they have 10 kids in school, they should pay 120K, period! G-d will provide it obviously."

What is so perverse about the sentiment is that the same argument can be made to not give Tzedaka. And the gemarra does not have kind words for someone who makes that argument. If you see someone strugling with tuition and you are in a position to help, that is your obligation, just as much as if they are struggling to make a living.

But, as a side note, I would be curious which Yeshivos charge 12K even for the younger grades that are purely spending it on Torah education and not other things (nice buildings, recreational grounds, and secular education).

 
At 2:23 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

anonymous: I don't teach my kids to look down at Jews in Chutz Laaretz, but I do teach them what a huge zechut it is to live in the land where Jews are supposed to live, just as its a huge zechut for us to keep shabbat. Its very difficult for many Jews to keep shabbat (which they see all the time), and they know its very hard for Jews to move to Israel. Their grandparents live in chutz laaretz, and they feel very sorry for them.

 
At 3:05 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Nothing perverse at all, Nobody. Tzedakah, you have to give 10%, not so tough. Tuition, you have to give 85%, a little bit more difficult.

People do not want to come to Israel because of the extreme level of machlokes there, between and among all sectors of society. This is not being poresh min hatzibor, because there are many acceptable tzeeborim in America and other places.

 
At 4:14 PM, Anonymous Nobody said...

"Tzedakah, you have to give 10%, not so tough. Tuition, you have to give 85%, a little bit more difficult."

You misunderstood me. The argument against giving Tzedaka I was refering to is the argument that since the person's food is determined by Hashem, someone doesn't have to give them money, G-d will take care of it. I was critical of the statement "there is no tuition problem" not supportive of it.

 
At 5:21 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Poresh Min Hatzibur - thats one of the best rationalizations I've heard yet.

The best one I heard so far was from someone who said its so difficult to worry about trumot and maasrot, that its easier to be frum and keep Kosher in Monsey.

Why not come here and try to be part of the solution?

 
At 5:26 PM, Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Anonymous (one of them) said: "This kind of judgemental attitude is one of the major reasons that many people dont want to move to Israel."

Really? Thats probably at the bottom of the list. Top issues are:

1. Parnosa
2. Taking care of parents
3. Family is in Chul.
4. Security
5. Language

I don't think that "judgemental attitude" is anywhere on the list...nor do any Rishonim use that as an acceptable reason for not moving to EY either.

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger anonymous said...

"anonymous: I don't teach my kids to look down at Jews in Chutz Laaretz, but I do teach them what a huge zechut it is to live in the land where Jews are supposed to live, just as its a huge zechut for us to keep shabbat."

One of two things is true. Either you talk very differently around your kids than you write here, or you are teaching your kids things unwittingly that you dont realize you are teaching. I hope it's the former.

 
At 6:56 PM, Blogger anonymous said...

"Anonymous (one of them) said: "This kind of judgemental attitude is one of the major reasons that many people dont want to move to Israel.""

You are misunderstanding. That judgemental tone is part of the extreme factionalization and intolerance in Israel, which is a number one reason that many people dont think their families will do well in Israel.

 
At 6:59 PM, Blogger anonymous said...

"I don't think that "judgemental attitude" is anywhere on the list...nor do any Rishonim use that as an acceptable reason for not moving to EY either."

Atmosphere in Israel belongs very high on the list, and as I've pointed out numerous times, talmud torah is an acceptable reason for the gemara, let alone rishonim. That is before we get to the risk of kids being so turned off they leave religion altogether, and the alienation from immigrant parents who will be unable to influence them.

 
At 8:36 PM, Blogger Rebeljew said...

Nobody

The halacha on tzedaka is that even an "ani hamitfarnes min ha tzedaka" has to give. In the case of tuition, no one is arguing not to give at all. Your equation is bogus.

The point was that you are overliteralizing a comment in the Gemorra. According to you, there is no reason not to charge 12K. There is no reason to give tzedaka either. Poor people have what they have from Heaven, whether I give them or not. And my giving won't change that according to your overliteral principle.

 
At 9:53 PM, Anonymous Nobody said...

"The halacha on tzedaka is that even an "ani hamitfarnes min ha tzedaka" has to give. In the case of tuition, no one is arguing not to give at all. Your equation is bogus."

You also misunderstand me. I was saying the exact opposite, and them make exactly my point as if you are arguing with me.

 
At 10:02 PM, Anonymous Nobody said...

Let me try that again.

What I was saying is the argument that there is no tuition problem is wrong. Because Hashem provides the money doesn't change the need for those who can to provide the money/price break (same thing).

You seem to take my point to the exact opposite, and then you make my point which was:

"the same argument can be made to not give Tzedaka."

Which you restate as:

"According to you, there is no reason not to charge 12K. There is no reason to give tzedaka either."

Except that it isn't according to me, although perhaps according to R' Feival Cohen's reasoning giving Tzedakah would violate the notion of כל מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה.

Of course he doesn't take it that far, but my point is that it shows the flaw in the logic. Just as you have to give Tzedaka anyway, you have to help with tuition, anyway.

What I would be curious about, though, is the other part of my post. Where are these schools that spend 12K per child on just Torah education?

 
At 11:50 PM, Blogger Rebeljew said...

nobody

Obviously, I have misunderstood. Just tell me who's on foist?

"What I would be curious about, though, is the other part of my post. Where are these schools that spend 12K per child on just Torah education? "

What is the relevence of this question? Can a family pay only for Torah education and say I will pay for Hebrew studies only, only in a minimal classroom, etc. but I will not pay for the snacks, the air conditioning, the water fountain, the bathroom etc.? In NJ and in California, there are many taht charge this much. 8K is common, even in lower income areas. I just wanted to point out that it should not matter. If it doesn't count in your cheshbon, tehn what difference does it make?

 
At 3:15 AM, Anonymous Nobody said...

"What is the relevence of this question?"

I guess two parts. One, it further refutes R' Cohen's claim.

But more importantly, it suggests that part of the problem is priority. A lot of the money is going into the computers, the opulence of the facilities (we are often talking about >20 million dollar buildings here) and the top notch secular education.

That is really where the priorities need to change. Paying for the Torah portion, in acceptable facilities (and yes, you have to feed your children) should be the priority, and if you have money for more, great.

The point is that both ends of the equation need to be re-evaluated. It seems like each side is saying the other has to give everything. That isn't going to solve the problem.

 
At 5:58 PM, Blogger Rebeljew said...

"It seems like each side is saying the other has to give everything."

It is simply unreasonable to expect 5K + PER CHILD as an entry price and expect people to be able to support 5+ children, year after year, in yeshiva. The Catholics understand that, why don't we?

A new funding paradigm and probably a new education paradigm is desparately required, as the one I linked earlier.

 

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