Tuesday, July 19, 2005

The Disengagement and the Charedim, where are they?

In this past weeks hebrew Mishpacha (a Chareidi weekly), there was an article about this issue. It quoted the Tolna Rebbe saying that he doesn't understand why the Chareidi population isn't doing anything. The chareidi piopulation is ready to protest the possible desecration of old graves in the construction but not the disengagment.

I believe that a large part of the answer is the following. The Chareidi population and leadership in many ways feel vindicated. For 50+ years they have been warning the dati leumi not to participate in society, etc. how the chilonim will never accept them etc. Now their predictions are coming true. The chiloni world has turned on the Dati Leumi in many ways. The army, is now talking of closing down Hesder Yeshivos or at least disbanding their units. Even before that there have been major problems with the role of women in the army. Of course, the disengagement which is affecting mostly Dati Leumi. Therefore, in a way, maybe even unconsciously, the Chareidi world wants the disengagement. They want the Dati leumi to see the light. The Chareidi world believes that the Dati Leumi will now become more Chareidi in light of these events. Because the Chareidi world has never believed in the state giving back land is not a big deal to them.


Heshy said...

You are correct.
Why should the chareidim fight for gushkatif.You dont see gush katif fighting for chareidim.On all issues such as Shabbos rallies,grave digging,the gay parade in Jerusalem,etc the gush katifniks are not around.As they say in America one hand has to wash the other.That has not happened with the gush katif people.Why should chareidim get involved.I wrote about this issue on my blog. Heshys house.blogspot.com

Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Heshy: Its not that the Gush katif'niks don't care about the issues you raised. They may have a different approach, but I don't think that the D.L crowd disgrees in principle. BTW - a few years back there was a huge Chareidi + DL rally against the Supreme Court. (I was there - impressive mix)

Why should Chareidim get involved? Because its hypocritical to fight over dead Jews / Jewish (?) graves yet completely ignore living Jews. BTW - the yeshivot in Gush Katif learn around the clock 365 days a year, alot more than the Chareidi world.

p. almoni said...

BTW, yesterday, (I believe) there was a massive rally at the kotel. The majority of the participants were chareidim.

bluke said...

But meanwhile the Ashkenazi Charedi parties (Degel Hatorah and Aguda) are sitting in Sharon's government and supporting him in critical Knesset votes.

lamedzayin said...

Perhaps the chareidim think it's a good move? Why give them insidious motivations when the more obvious answer is that they support disengagement because it's the best of several evils?

Anonymous said...

Please do not talk about supporting the government from within as an attack against the chareidim.

The NRP had people in the govt when it *mattered* and stayed in the govt when the govt was clearly planning for this.

At this late stage in the game, there are not enough Chareidi seats in the knesset to make the vote. The gov't sole purpose is to disengage. If Degel and Agudah leave, they will just get backing from Meretz or Arab parties (!).

Please do not try to pin this on the chareidim. There is a political system here. I doubt you are oblivious to the corruptness of the whole system, and the chareidim (and everyone else pretty much) tries to help their constituents.

bluke said...


The Cahredim know that disengagement will solve nothing. The Charedi leaders have said it many times.

Anonymous said...

it could be that they are dubious if it will work, but no one has a better proposal, and the charedim don't believe the land is sacrosant, they don't have ideological reasons to preclude disengagement.
For them, it's whether it is wiser strategy to disengage than not, and there is no alternate proposal.

Litvshe said...

Someone said in the Hebrew Mishpocha magazine that if it isn't clear to R' Elyoshiv how to posken in the case of the expulsion it's the utmost chutzpah for the DL crowd to have a clear position.
This is sheer nonsense. R' Elyoshiv has a clear enough view of the issur of Lo Techanem to hold like the Chazon Ish. Who holds it assur to sell a small house to a non-Jew for the express purpose of buying a larger one. R' Elyoshiv has an opinion. He's just not saying anything. Another reason to question his judgement, in my view.
Whether or not the Chareidi gedolim agree with land for peace etc...what is reprehensible is that they are sitting aside as thousands of Jews are going to be forcibly thrown out of their houses. Graves are going to be moved (graves that 100% belong to Jews and the moving of them is very doubtfully helpful to the general public, but when it's graves of unsure origin where the benifit to the public is clear, as brought down in the SA it's fine to protest), Shuls and Yeshiva's destroyed. What are the Chareidim going to do when suddenly their supply of lettuce and other leafy vegatables dries up. Since the vast majority of mehadrin veggies come from from the Gush.
Needless to say, it's morally reprehensable, their silence. Baruch Hashem at least the Bostoner Rebbe and such talmedei chochomin as R' Melinowitz have the backbone to stand up and say something.
But...as far as much of the people on the street? They'd go out tomorrow and protest and fight if they got the green light.
See my post on our latest Shabbos guests to see how even Hungarishe Yeshiva bochorim are walking around with orange ribbons and visiting the Gush.